“We are Almost There” by Harold Camping

28 04 2008

Digg!I’ve been getting into published works about 2012 and I will soon be posting books about this topic on my site. As for now, I’ll be posting free electronic e-books about 2012 from professional researchers. The first of this series of posts is by Harold Camping and goes over the Biblical evidence. The book focuses on scripture and how the scripture tells us about the second coming of Christ in 2011 with Judgment/Doomsday in October 2011. The book does very well in explaining how these conclusions are met and allows the reader to come to their own conclusions. Its a good read for anyone interested in the Biblical aspect and does go into how one can save oneself from judgment. Here is a direct link to the PDF “We are Almost there” by Harold Camping.

“We are Almost There” by Harold Camping taken from FamilyRadio.com

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66 responses

11 05 2008
iGreg

Actually, this book say the date is in 2011. Specifically, the Rapture in May 2011, and the total end of this current universe (doomsday) in Oct. 2011.

11 05 2008
ddig

I stand corrected. Thank you iGreg for that catch.

1 07 2008
Marc

Hello,

One problem I have with the book “We’re Almost There” is that Mr. Camping assumes and does not prove that his Biblical Calendar is accurate.

In chapter 2, page 8, of his book “We Are Almost There”
(http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/frame/) Mr. Camping writes, “As we carefully study the Bible, we discover that the world was created about 13,000 years ago.* The Bible is very precise, so when we harmonize the Biblical calendar with our modern calendar, we know that the year of creation was 11,013 B.C.”

Do you see the asterisk Mr. Camping placed after the word “ago”. This is very important. This asterisk directs us to the bottom of the page where he directs us to his proof that the world is about 13, 000 years old. This is what we find:

“* You are invited to send to Family Radio for the free book “Adam When?” that shows how the Bible provides this information.”

Mr. Camping uses his Biblical Calendar of history to project future dates such as the final judgment. Unfortunately, his proof of the calendar in “Adam When?” contains mathematical and logical errors, and is therefore invalid.

Since his original proof of the calendar is invalid, we know that his teachings that are based on this calendar, are also not to be trusted.

I would be happy to discuss the mathematical and logical fallacies that are found in Mr. Camping’s proof of the Biblical Calendar.

Some criticize people who reject the teachings of Mr. Camping without carefully reading his books. Well, I do carefully read Mr. Camping’s books, and believe that I can demonstrate clearly from the Bible several mathematical and logical errors that he makes.

For instance, Mr. Camping calls a person named in the Genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 a Calendar Patriarch. He claims that a Calendar Patriarch must meet two conditions: 1. He must be born in the year the previous patriarch died. and 2. He must be directly descended from the previous Calendar Patriarch.
He admits there were exceptions to this pattern such as Adam, Seth, Noah, and Abraham. How does Mr. Camping defend this inconsistency in the Biblical Calendar? Here is what he writes, and notice the faulty mathematical logic that he uses to defend his Biblical calendar:

On page 58 of his book “Adam When? A Biblical Solution to the Timetable of Mankind” Mr. Camping wrote “At the beginning, men were comparatively scarce. Thus, it seems apparent that when Adam died, no one was born that year who was qualified to become the next reference patriarch. When Seth died 112 years later, the same situation prevailed.” He repeated this logic on page 59 where he wrote, “When Noah died 350 years after the flood, the same situation prevailed that existed when Adam died. Few people lived upon the earth and no one met the conditions required to become the next reference patriarch.” Then on page 63 where he summarized his calendar proof, he repeated the same logic when he wrote the following: “There were periods in history when the above rules for calendar keeping could not be strictly kept. Such was the situation at the beginning, when men first began to multiply on the earth. This was the situation at the flood of Noah’s day and the special time when God limited his people to the family of Abraham.”
Isn’t his explanation in these statements mathematically incorrect? Doesn’t his calendar specify that any calendar patriarch must be directly descended from the previous calendar patriarch? How does having a “comparatively scarce” population on the Earth during a patriarch’s lifetime make it more difficult for him to have a descendant born in the year of his death? Isn’t it true that the “comparatively scarce” population of the Earth would have nothing to do with his claim that Adam did not have a direct descendant born in the year of his death? Mr. Camping asserted that Adam’s 930 years was not enough time for him to have a direct descendant born in the year of his death because “men were comparatively scarce.” Isn’t his assertion wrong? Isn’t it true that the “comparatively scarce” population of the Earth would have nothing to do with his claim that Seth did not have a direct descendant born in the year of his death? He asserted that Seth’s 912 years was not enough time for a direct descendant to be born in the year of his death because, “men were comparatively scarce.” Isn’t his assertion wrong? Isn’t this especially strange logic since he teaches, with no reservations, that Levi, Kohath, and Amram each had a direct descendant born in the year they died? And didn’t they all live to be less than 140 years old?
Again, my question is: How does having a “comparatively scarce” population on the Earth during a patriarch’s lifetime make it more difficult for him to have a descendant born in the year of his death?

This is one of many, many, many, examples of Mr. Camping using flawed logic and flawed mathematics in his teaching. He disguises his errors by making his arguments so complex that few take the time to check his math. Adam’s descendants could easily have numbered over one million when he died at 930 years old. Mr. Camping’s suggestion that one of his male descendants would not be born in the year he died seems highly unlikely. In addition, Mr. Camping’s explanation that a scarce human population somehow rationalizes his conclusion is not valid. Even if there were 10 billion other people on the Earth when Adam and Eve were created, none of these people could produce a descendant of Adam, except Eve (or other intimate partner if Adam committed adultery or remarried after Eve’s death).
I would be happy to provide you with many more examples of Mr. Camping violating God’s laws of logic and mathematics. Mr. Camping needs to be held accountable for teaching doctrines contrary to the Bible, and contrary to God’s mathematical and logical truths.

Again, I can give you many more examples of Mr. Camping using mathematical and logical errors to prove his calendar, and would be happy to discuss this topic further

Marc

11 07 2008
Tony

I find it curious that Harold Camping is the target of ridicule and defamation and that people abuse him because of his appearance and his unique teaching methods and his outlandish revelations about the Bible. Harold Camping brings a message that is completely adverse to conventionally established Church teachings. Many seminary educated professional Pastors and Ministers and others who preside in leadership positions within today’s established Church structure have taken a position that Mr. Camping is some sort of a misfit. Some have called him a lunatic and a charlatan. If you read the Bible carefully you’ll be surprised to learn that God almost never selected seminary-trained people to deliver His message or to carry out His divine plan. God chose Moses to deliver the nation of Israel out of Egypt. Was Moses a qualified individual to accept such a task when compared to the standards of today’s established church leaders? When God selected the man to slay the giant Goliath, did He select a man that was fit to carry out the task by today’s church standards? When God selected a man to prepare the way for the Lord Jesus’ coming He picked a man who was considered a crazy evangelist who lived in the wilderness. This man was John the Baptist. Today’s church leaders can be compared to the Pharisees and the Sadducees of Jesus’ time. That is to say, unless you were seminary trained and unless you were well connected in the established church, established church leaders would ignore and ridicule you and call you a fraud. Is Mr. Camping a modern day prophet? Is Mr. Camping God’s choice to reveal new revelations about how to interpret the Bible? Is Mr. Camping a modern day John the Baptist? You must judge this for yourself. As for me, it sounds like Mr. Camping fits the bill when it comes to the way God has always chosen His messengers. God never seems to pick people who were qualified and good looking and great speakers and great leaders like we see in most pulpits today. On the contrary, God picks those who reply upon Him and trust Him and not upon themselves, as do so many professional and established church leaders.

12 07 2008
joseph

marc,
thank you for that information. please reveal more of these math and logic errors. thanks
joe

22 07 2008
Bruno

Yo Tony, what the hell? I used to be an avid listener of the OF and Family Radio until Camping started going off the deep end. I became a Jehovah’s Witness expert (never was one, but married one) and it took me TWO years to pull my wife break out and have her break free of that cult mentality. Mr. Camping is a cult leader. He is cut out of the same cloth from that jackass on 20/20 recently. I don’t recall his name, but he said the world would end on OR BEFORE June 12, 2008 – Hello – I’m still here! Camping also made a prediction and he was WRONG. What does God say about a prophet whose prophecy didn’t come true? That he’s a FALSE prophet (read Duet. 18:22). God said it I believe it, that settles it. It’s not rocket science. Camping predicted 1994 as the end of the world, now he’s at it again with 2011. The Watchtower also made predictions that the world will come to an end in 1875, then 1914, and 1925, 1941, 1975 (that was a biggie), tried again in 1992 (which started an internal uproar) so now they simply say “the end is near” – but keep it generic so they don’t look like jackasses again. Here’s the deal: These cults and cult leaders are dangerous and prey on folks that are insecure about their spiritual future and take control of their minds, money, time and most importantly their personal relationship with Jesus Christ and its so, so sad. And speaking of Jesus: He comes when he comes. The rapture and end of the world is none of our business. Besides, I’m in a win/win situation regardless of what happens. If I die tomorrow, I go to heaven. If Jesus comes tomorrow to take his church home I go to heaven without experiencing death. Either way, I’m happy (and secure). So instead on focusing on these clowns who try to manipulate people by telling them doomsday is around the corner, focus on the freedom that Jesus gave you through faith in him. When he died on the cross for you his last words were: “It is finished”. You’re sins have been paid for IN FULL and you have been redeemed by him taking your place. All your past, present and future sins are forgiven. Now go on with your life and spread the Gospel to the best of your ability. That’s it. And yes, it’s that simple. Below are a couple of interesting videos on how cults operate. Tell me if Camping doesn’t fit the bill!

Video One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4-Hms7bHqY (approx. 10min.)

Video Two (you may need google player which you can get at the link below: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/wofjehovah.html (approx. 50min.)

God Bless,
Bruno

24 07 2008
ddig

Thank you all for your responses.

In efforts to get the opinion of Harold Camping on this discussion, I have contacted a dear friend of mine which knows Mr. Camping personally and works for him on a full time basis. Here is a response to this discussion from my dear friend.

As you know, the “end time” issue is a scary one. No one wants to face it. In Noah’s time, the Bible says no one believed, except Noah’s family. The Bible also states that almost everyone in the world today will not believe that Jesus is coming to judge the world at the end time, there is a remnant who will believe. So, there is no surprise to see lots of people don’t believe. And believing in the Bible doesn’t hurt. If we humble before God, is there anyone laugh at us? may be. But if it is true that Jesus is coming and we are ready in our heart to see Him, then it may be well with us. For those who are not ready, then they will know what will happen to them. And if we are ready, and for some reason, for example Jesus does not come then you are not to die on May 21, 2011. But that is just a silly thought, the Bible confirmed that Jesus is coming.

Now about those who oppose Mr. C. There are hundreds and thousands of people both in the churches and in the world who are strongly opposing him, for many reasons. But look at all of the prophets in all time in history, people never liked none of them. People hated them; people hurt them; people imprisoned them, and most of them were killed by those who did not like to hear the message.

The Bible says whoever speak the truth of the Bible is a prophet. In a sense we are all prophets if we speak about the Bible. It happened that Mr. C. has a platform that is very large around the world, so as a modern prophet of the Bible, then no body likes him.

I agree if we look into the past. Mr. C. did make some mistakes. And that is how God wanted that Mr. must made those mistakes. But now at the very close to the end, God wants to correct those mistake so that we can see the truth. It is not mathematics that decides the day of the end time, but it is the whole Bible points to the day of the end time. Almost all people just want to jump to the conclusion that Mr. C made mistake or they can prove that they can do math. And all they do is to find the opposite idea or disagreement with the Bible. Bible does say about that, too.

Well, I encourage you to read again the book We Are Almost There, and compare to your Bible. Try to spend time to read the Scipture references. Don’t ignore the Words of the Bible, they are more important than whatever Mr. C wrote in his book. Don’t believe Mr. C. right away, rather check with your Bible to see may be something here that the God is speaking to you.

Even now, I study the Bible everyday, and I must say that I never understand the Bible like before, though I had 2 master degrees in theology. God is speaking clearly now about the end time and His process of judgment to the world. We must listen to God today. The Bible does not tell you to follow any one but God. Mr. C. though does not ask anyone to follow him or to join him as a cult, or to sell everything then giving to him before May, 21, 2011. In fact that he insists everyone to read the Bible and to believe in God only, and carefully listen to the message from the Bible about the end time. That’s all Mr. C. does.

31 07 2008
Ashebir Tesfaye

I would like to thank our brother who gave a concise explanation about brother Camping on the above blog. It is true FR is faithful to the Bible.
I presume almost every body who believes in God wants to go to Heaven. But almost no one is willing to die. That is why the comming back of the Lord Jesus Christ is such a shokingly sad news for most “christians”. When FR proclaims May 21, 2011 to be that date for the Comming Back, 1988 the end of the church age, the Toungue movement and all the occults rampant in today’s churches is from Satan; and most of all the command “get out of the local congregations!” have sent a huge sesmic force through out the “churches”. It is absolutely logical to demonize Mr. Camping for all the mess resulted from his teachings. When true believes go out of these local congregations financial income, which I believe is one of the goals for the establishement of most ministries, will go down. This means the market for man made prosperity gospel will decline. Finally businesses established for this purpose will be closed. Unemployed pastors, decons, “prophets”…

1 08 2008
johannes coetzee

I live in South Africa and we listen to Family Radio via AM and Short Wave radio broadcasts.

(Rev 14:7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

May the Lord have mercy on each one of us.

2011-greetings

johannes coetzee

Family Radio listener (South Africa)

4 08 2008
Marc

Joe asked me to share more of Mr. Camping’s mathematical and logical errors. I am happy to do so. And I am happy to answer any questions regarding my views on Mr. Camping’s teachings.

Mr. Camping’s teachings can be very confusing, and it is hard for some people to see that his evidence for his Biblical Calendar, and his evidence for the timing of end time events is not valid.

An example of one of his most confusing and most convincing arguments is found in a chart on pages 469 and 470 [513-514 on the online edition
( http://www.timehasanend.org/ )] in his recent book Time Has An End. This chart is titled “Important Time Interval Relationships.” In this chart he lists 22 major Biblical events with the dates that they occurred according to his Biblical Calendar. In the bottom corner of the chart he lists the “spiritual numbers.” The “spiritual numbers” he lists are 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 100, 1000, 12, 13, 17, 23, 37, 40, and 43. Although he doesn’t list it here for some reason, Mr. Camping has also taught that 11 is a “spiritual number.” Mr. Camping also considers any number that is a product of “spiritual numbers” to be a “spiritual number.” For instance, the 344 years between Israel being divided and the end of Judah’s 70 year exile can be factored as 2×2×2×43. Thus, 344 is a “spiritually significant” number. Also, the number 5023 is considered a spiritually significant number that points us to the spiritually significant number 23.

Mr. Camping will be pointing out that 47 time intervals are “spiritual numbers.” He teaches that this is evidence that his calendar is of God. He doesn’t understand that this evidence is not valid for many reasons:

1. Many of his time intervals are miscalculated purposely. He claims God has authorized him to choose to calculate intervals between B.C. and A.D. dates by actual years or by actual years + 1 (which he labels inclusive (INCL)). This gives him double the possibility of arriving at a spiritually significant number for the time interval. If anyone is interested, I would be happy to explain why he claims he is authorized to do this, and why his claim that he is authorized to miscalculate time intervals is not biblical.

2. 18 of the 47 significant intervals were based on dates chosen by Mr. Camping for the very reason that they would give spiritually significant time intervals (1988: the end of the church age; 1994: the beginning of the latter rain; and 2011 the projected end of the world.) It would not be logical to purposely select 1988, 1994, and 2011, because they would yield spiritual time intervals, and then claim that these time intervals are evidence that the calendar is marvelously ordained of God.

3. Mr. Camping’s definition of a spiritual number is very broad and a high percent of total numbers. For instance, by Mr. Camping’s definition 71 out of the numbers 1 through 100 are significant numbers! We should not be amazed that many of the time intervals are also significant numbers. Finding such a time interval should not be considered a marvelous sign that God ordained the Biblical Calendar.

4. The total possible time intervals on Mr. Camping’s chart can be calculated using basic mathematics as follows: 21+20+19+18+17+16+15+14+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1. This is 231 possible time intervals! [Don’t be amazed that 231 (3x7x11) is a spiritual number!] Mr. Camping only listed 47 of the 231 intervals as yielding a spiritual number. That means that Mr. Camping has not identified 184 time intervals as spiritual numbers! Isn’t that evidence that God did not ordain the calendar? For instance, he focuses on the fact that from creation to the end in 2011 is 13023 years and from creation to the end of the church age in 1988 is 13000 years. But from creation to the birth of Christ, according Mr. Camping’s calendar is 11006 years (not a spiritually significant number!) and from creation to the crucifixion is 11045 years (also not a significant number!). I would think that one would consider the birth of Christ and the crucifixion to be key Biblical events! It puzzles me how Mr. Camping claims that the 47 time intervals that yield spiritual numbers provide abundant evidence for his calendar, but the many, many important time intervals that do not give a spiritually significant number are not considered to be evidence that the calendar is not of God.

A person may think that Mr. Camping’s discovery of 47 significant time intervals within 22 Biblical events in his calendar is amazing. However, when we take the time to analyze the facts, we find this evidence does not support his claim that he has discovered a previously hidden Biblical Calendar. And when we carefully analyze the facts we find that this evidence does not support his prediction that 2011 is the end of the world.

Marc

17 08 2008
rudy beyer

do you have any information on Dec 21,2012 if could you email me to let me know Thankyou and i liked your article

3 09 2008
JDE VAN DYK

I BELIEVE WITH ALL MY HEART WHAT CAMPING SAYS CONCERNING CHRIST’S COMING IN 2011 .WE ALL KNOW HOW THE BIBLE SAYS THAT NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOU OF THE LORD’S COMING .BUT THE BIBLE DOES TELL US THAT IN THE LAST DAYS ,GOD WILL BE OPENIG UP NEW TRUTHS IN THE BIBLE .AND HE DOES NOTHING EXCEPT HE REVEALS HIS PLANS T HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS .ANOTHER THING ,IF GOD COULD TELL NOA THE PRECISE DAY OF THE DESTRUCTION THAT WAS TO COME UPON THE WORLD IN HIS DAY ;WOULD’NT HE TELL THE BELIEVERS THE PRECISE DAY OF THE VERY END OF MANKIND .AND THIS TIME ,WE ARE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING BAD AS A FLOOD THAT DESTROYS EVERY UNSAVED PERSON AS IN NOAH’S DAY ;THIS TIME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE VERY END OF THE UNIVERSE ,FOR THE LORD WILL DESTROY THE WHOLE UNIVERSE THIS TIME .PRAY TO GOD FOR HIS MERCY ,THAT HE MAY ALSO OPEN YOUR SPIRITUAL EYES .THABK YOU ,MAY GOD’S SPIRIT BE WITH YOU .

3 09 2008
JUDE VAN DYK

I LOVE AN RESPECT MR CAMPING .I HOPE PASTORS LIKE JOHN MCCARTHUR ,TD JAKES ,BILLY GRAHAM ,BISHOP MORTON ,AND THE MANY OF THEM ,THAT THEY TOO MIGHT SEARCH HE BIBLE AND PRAY TO GOD FOR HIS MERCY .BY THE WAT READER……I LOVE YOU .

10 09 2008
Marc

Jude,

I have documented many mathematical and logical errors in Mr. Camping’s teaching. When I present my Biblical research to him, he refuses to read it. He wants everyone to be open to the new truths God is revealing to him, and yet he will not even consider the clear, and undeniable proof that he is wrong. I think that his attitude that he knows it all, and doesn’t need to listen to correction is dangerous.

12 09 2008
jude vandyk

marc ,open you eyes and see ,brother .look at the churches of our day .how is it ,that virtually every church and denomination in the world is preaching a man-made gospel .something dreadful has happened .the age of the church has definately come to an end .Mr Camping is not perfect ,he is a man just like me an you .he is bound to make an error there and there ,but i truly belive ,without a shadow of a doubt that his teaching concerning the end of the church age is spot on .the time information he gives concerning the return of the Lord Jesus are kinda debatable ;but evidences in what is happening in the local congregations and in the secular world tells us that we are in that terrible time in history ,when Jehovah has begun the judgment process .God bless you mu brother ,and may He open our eyes that we may see more in His wonderful Testimony -the Bible .

12 09 2008
Andrew

hello, One of the comments above seems to discredit the bible’s clear words: that NO man knows when Christ will come. Check out Mark 13:39. Jesus himself doesn’t know exactly when. Only the Father knows that.

Goodbye.

13 09 2008
Marc

Jude,

Mr. Camping first published Adam When? in 1974. In this book he offered Biblical proof for his Biblical Calendar of History. He offered this book to give a Bible interpretation that gave a Biblical Calendar that he claimed was supported by scientific evidence. He claimed that scientific evidence of the age of the Earth supported his Biblical calendar. His proof of the calendar was so complex that few people took the time to really scrutinize it. And it didn’t seem necessary at the time because Mr. Camping did not use this book to make predictions as to the timing of the rapture, the timing of the final tribulation, or the end of the church age. For these reasons few spoke out against this calendar. And Mr. Camping assumed that the absence of criticism of his calendar meant that he was 100% correct in his calendar theory.

Then in 1992 he wrote 1994? which expanded his calendar teaching into projecting end time events. That is when I thought it was important to really check out his Biblical proof of the calendar found in Adam When? What did I find? Not just one or two little mistakes or typos. I found dozens of mathematical and logical errors. I found that his final proof of the calendar was simply the following circular reasoning: Mr. Camping taught in “Adam When ?” that the key to the proof of his calendar was proving from the Bible that Levi was 21 years older that Joseph. Then he taught that we know that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph because we know we have a calendar. That is circular reasoning, that is wrong, that is teaching beyond what the Bible declares. Mr. Camping teaches that the church age is over because all churches teach doctrines that are not in harmony with the Bible. However, he is teaching a Biblical Calendar that has no Biblical basis whatsoever. He is using this unbiblical calendar to project all kinds of future events that go beyond what the Bible declares. He cannot condemn all the other churches for going beyond what the Bible teaches, until he stops teaching all of these unbiblical doctrines regarding the timing of the end. He is a classic example of trying to take the speck out of other Christians’ eyes when he has a beam in his own eye.

Jude, if you look at the mega churches or the TV and radio evangelists you will see a lot of ministers watering down the gospel in order to be popular and prosperous. And you will find many of these ministers claiming to have special knowledge from God to be able to heal, or prophecy future events. These ministers are indeed often in the ministry for fame, glory, power, or money. However, if you focus on the small churches and small missionary works throughout the world, I think you will find many faithful ministers of the gospel.

If you are claiming that Mr. Camping is the only minister that insists that we are saved by grace apart from works, you haven’t looked far. Many reformed, Presbyterian, and Baptist ministries are similar to Mr. Camping in their emphasis that we cannot believe until we are born again by the Holy Spirit.

In Mr. Camping’s recent book “We Are Almost There” Mr. Camping offers no further proof of his Biblical Calendar. Instead he references his original book Adam When?
However, he refuses to consider that his original book was in error. He assumes that his original book was correct because it was written 34 years ago! He doesn’t understand that the reason he didn’t receive rebuke for the errors in that book was simply because almost no one took the time to wade through his complicated explanations. He doesn’t realize that it didn’t seem important to us, because his Biblical Calendar was not being used to predict the end of time, or the end of the church age. Now that he has used his Biblical Calendar to teach harmful doctrines many are going back to his original calendar proof and discovering dozens of mathematical errors. However, he refuses to go back and check his original proof of the calendar to make sure that it is in harmony with everything we read in the Bible. He confidently assumes that he could not have been in error in his original proof of the Biblical Calendar that was the foundation to many of his other teachings.
Mr. Camping is not open to correction, even though many of patiently provided Biblical correction to his false teachings.

Marc

12 10 2008
Al

I can only agree with ddig. I ‘ve been with Family radio for over ten years. I heard Mr. Camping make a few mistakes and as soon as he is aware of them he corrects himself. Funny, when the correction comes, more truth is found. Everything that is new at one point or another I disagreed only to find out later that Mr. Camping was right. I have been amazed more the a few times. It is getting worse in the world every day. We are being tested more and more every day. We need to pray more and more every day.

12 10 2008
Al

Marc:

From: http://biblecalculator.com/calculator.html

Time has and end:

-11013 Creation
-10883 Birth of Seth
-10778 Birth of Enos
-9873 Birth of Cainan / End Enos period
-8963 Birth of Mahalaleel / End Cainan period
-8068 Birth of Jared / End Mahalaleel period
-7106 Birth of Enoch / End Jared period
-6741 Birth of Methuselah / End Enoch period
-5772 Birth of Lamech / End Methuselah period
-5590 Birth of Noah
-5110 120-Yr flood warning given
-5090 Birth of Japheth
-5088 Birth of Shem
-4990 Noachian Flood
-4640 Death of Noah
-4488 Death of Shem / Start Arphaxad period
-4050 Birth of Salah / End Arphaxad period
-3617 Birth of Eber / End Salah period
-3153 Birth of Peleg / End Eber period
-3114 Possible date continents were divided (Adam When, p. 89)
-2914 Birth of Reu / End Peleg period
-2675 Birth of Serug / End Reu period
-2445 Birth of Nahor / End Serug period
-2297 Birth of Terah / End Nahor period
-2167 Birth of Abram (later called Abraham)
-2092 Abraham enters Canaan
-2068 Abraham circumcised
-2067 Birth of Isaac / Sodom destroyed
-2007 Birth of Jacob
-1992 Death of Abraham
-1916 Birth of Joseph
-1896 Joseph released from prison
-1886 Joseph becomes prime minister of Egypt / Start 7 good yrs
-1879 Start of 7-yr famine
-1877 Israel enters Egypt 2 yrs into great famine
-1872 End of 7-yr famine
-1806 Death of Joseph
-1527 Birth of Moses
-1487 Moses fled Egypt
-1447 Moses returns to Egypt; Israel leaves Egypt
-1407 Jordan crossed, Israel starts 1st 40 yrs in Canaan, conquest, delivered by Joshua & Othniel
-1367 Start 80 yrs when Ehud & Shamgar delivered Israel in Canaan
-1287 Start 40 yrs when Deborah & Barak delivered Israel in Canaan
-1247 Start 40 yrs when Gideon judged Israel
-1207 Start 3 yrs when Abimelech ruled Israel
-1204 Start 23 yrs when Tola judged Israel
-1181 Start 22 yrs when Jair judged Israel
-1159 Start 6 yrs when Jephthah judged Israel
-1153 Start 7 yrs when Ibzan judged Israel
-1146 Start 10 yrs when Elon judged Israel
-1136 Start 8 yrs when Abdon judged Israel
-1128 Start 20 yrs when Samson judged Israel
-1108 Start 40 yrs when Eli judged Israel
-1068 Death of Eli / Start 7 mo.s when ark was in Philistine cities
-1067 Start 20 yrs when Samuel judged Israel
-1047 Israel becomes a monarchy (King Saul)
-1037 Birth of David
-1007 David becomes king; Death of Saul, Jonathan
-971 Solomon becomes king
-967 Death of David; Solomon begins building temple
-931 Israel divided into two nations: Israel and Judah
-709 Israel (10 tribes) destroyed by Assyria
-609 Judah servant to Egypt, then Babylon / Start 70-yr trib.
-587 Judah destroyed by Babylon, ending monarchy
-539 End 70-yr trib: Media-Persian Darius (Cyrus) siezes Israel from Babylon
-391 Completion of Old Testament: book of Esther recorded
-8 God again brings revelation that will result in New Testament
-7 Birth of Christ [Tue Oct 4] / Beginning of first jubilee
6 12-yr old Jesus found in temple by his parents
29 Jesus announced as Lamb of God [Wed Sep 26]
33 Crucifixion [Fri Apr 1] / Resurrection [Sun Apr 3] / Church age begins-Pentecost [Sun May 22]
70 Jerusalem destroyed by Rome
95 Last Bible writings completed, sealing divine revelation
1517 World history: Martin Luther post his 95 Theses, marking start of Reformation
1611 World history: King James Version, most faithful English Bible translation, published
1948 Israel again becomes a nation [Fri May 14]
1988 End of Church Age [Sat May 21] / Beginning of great tribulation
1992 Unsealed: end times approach, 1994 & 2011 key dates
1994 Beginning of second jubilee (latter rain) [Wed Sep 7]
2001 Unsealed: 1988 Was end of church age: depart out now
2003 World history: Ur/Babylon/Nineveh (Iraq) liberated
2004 Unsealed: End of World in 2011 (7-year warning)
2007 Unsealed: Believers to be raptured 5-21-2011 / 5 mo.s hell on earth, then annihilation of unsaved 10-21-2011
2008 Unsealed: Actual payment for sins of the elect was made before foundation of world
2011 Rapture of believers [Sat May 21] / End of world [Fri Oct 21]

17 10 2008
Marc

Al,

Do you know the key that unlocked this Biblical calendar of history? Mr. Camping has explained the key in his book “Adam When? ” written in 1974. The book was written 34 years ago and is full of , mathematical and logical errors, as well as incorrect Bible references. Mr. Camping has never corrected these errors in 36 years! And he continues to assume his Biblical Calendar is correct based on this evidence that was fulls of errors. This is the shaky foundation that Mr. Camping builds much of his teaching on! Again, Al, rather than assuming and asserting this calendar to be accurate, you need to check out the proof of this calendar found in Adam When? And again, I challenge you to show me that you indeed check out Mr. Camping’s teaching from the Bible rather than just trusting Mr. Camping. I challenge you to explain the key that Mr. Camping claimed unlocked the Biblical Calendar. Most followers of Camping do not carefully check and double check to see if Mr. Camping is faithful to the Bible. They can not even repeat Mr. Camping’s explanation of the key to the Calendar of history! In Mr. Camping’s new book ” We Are Almost There” Mr. Camping does not even try to prove the calendar. He assumes the calendar and refers his readers to his original book “Adam When”? for the proof of this calendar. Unfortunately, few of his supporters carefully check out the proof of the calendar found in “Adam When?”. And that is why I am challenging you to identify the key to the calendar that Mr. Camping says proves that his calendar is Biblical. And I challenge anyone who supports Mr. Camping to explain Mr. Camping’s key to the Biblical Calendar. If you cannot do this, that is strong evidence that you are not checking out Mr. Camping’s teachings with the Bible. IF you can’t identify the Biblical key that unlocks the Biblical calendar, that is strong evidence that you are trusting Mr. Camping rather that checking out his teaching to see if his teachings are Biblical.

25 10 2008
Al

Hi Marc:

I am looking into the “Adam When” claim that you have made. I looked this document over a few years ago and need to review. I don’t take Mr. Campings word on anything. Instead, I have disagreed with him on many occasions only to be wrong after careful study and at times pointed conviction and chastisement.

I am not brainwashed, I can’t help but to agree; it just rings true. A complete understanding, clarity, a sense of real truth comes over me and others when we read, study the Bible or listen to Family radio. Either believers are simply wired that way or GOD is true and every man a lier. If we are wired that way then we mean no harm, we simply can’t live any other way. On the other hand, If GOD is true and every man a lier, then we are all in deep do do!

One thing seems certain, Family radio seems to be the only Bible based organization that adheres to the entire bible and it’s teachings as close as humanly possible. While I can’t prove this completely, I can tell you I have looked and looked again over the past 20 years for other churches, persons that are committed to GOD and his Word the Bible. A Bible and only Bible based organization takes a strong-willed person to lead, just think if it were board of directors involved. Truth would hardly make it to the surface, it would escape through the arguments. Many people take offense that Harold is leading Family radio, To me this principle is biblical. If all or most Christians, Jewish and Muslim religions are based on the bible is some way then why do they not receive the entire Bible? Why do they pick and choose what they feel is good for them? What if Judges did that with our Constitution? Lame statement, they are doing that with our Constitution…

In any case, the whole world is getting worse by the moment. Global terror, Greed, War, Rumor of wars, Adultery, Marriage and the family under all out attack, Families divided because of Religion, Murder in the name of Religion, Blatant Homosexuality in the churches and elsewhere, World systems starting to collapse, lying, cheating, stealing out of control and on every level. Do you think it will get better? Ask yourself when did it ever get better. While all this doesn’t prove the Bible, you can read all about it in the Bible.

We are a prideful, haughty, boastful, bunch. We would take credit for creation, the universe and existence if we could. We dance on the edge in the name of science and discovery. Funny, Quantum Physics agrees with may principles of the Bible although they wouldn’t admit to it, I see much agreement. Our prideful attitude, self indulgence, self glorifying will be our end.

28 10 2008
Marc

Al,

In Mr. Camping’s book “We Are Almost There” he assumes and does not prove his Biblical timeline of history. He references his book “Adam When?” for proof of this calendar. In “Adam When?” Mr. Camping gives a detailed proof of the calendar. This proof is full of mathematical errors, logical errors, wrong Biblical references, and false statements. Are you sure you have carefully checked his proof, and taken the time to think through every one of his claims in this book. I don’t think you have, because I asked you what Mr. Camping claims is the key that unlocked the previously hidden Biblical calendar. You were unable to tell me Mr. Camping’s calendar key. Would you like me to explain what Mr. Camping’s key to the calendar is? I would be happy to do so, with documentation.

You say that the teachings of Camping “ring true.” How can you say that unless you take the time to check out his calendar proof in light of the Bible? In my opinion, you are believing the convincing rhetoric of Mr. Camping without really checking out the facts. You are like most of his followers who trust Mr. Camping, but don’t take the time to read and understand his proof of his Biblical Calendar.

Please prove me wrong, and explain to me how Mr. Camping proves from the Bible his Biblical calendar. And if I am wrong regarding the many errors I find in Mr. Camping’s proof of the calendar, please explain from the Bible how I am wrong.

I am willing to discuss these issues. I have experienced that Mr. Camping, and Mr. Camping’s followers are unwilling to discuss these issues with me. They are not open to Biblical correction.

5 11 2008
Al

Hi Marc:

I am not stuck. If you can show me some points of contention, I will study them with Mr. Campings books in hand and the Bible. I haven’t seen anything that concerns me. If you have, please share them; it would help me understand what you are speaking about.

“explain to me how Mr. Camping proves from the Bible his Biblical calendar”

That’s a bit difficult to do in an email. I posted the timeline above. I think it better if we start with a few points you disagree with. We may find truth if we try that first.

“You say that the teachings of Camping “ring true.” ” To be clear, The Bible rings true. Mr. Camping in his role as a Bible teacher for the most part brings his understanding of what he studys to the surface.

To GOD be all the Glory!

Al

6 11 2008
Marc

Al,

Thanks for your reply. I hope we can have a comprehensive discussion regarding this complicated subject.

You have given me Mr. Camping’ conclusions regarding his Biblical Calendar, but haven’t even begun to offer proof of his Biblical Calendar. You are right that Mr. Camping’s proof of the calendar is so complicated that it would be hard to explain in an email (and so complicated that his followers are often unable to understand it). However, there is a simple key that you could easily explain to me in an email. The complicated part is proving the key. The simple part is explaining what the key is. Again, I don’t see how you can say you are trusting the Bible if you don’t know what Mr. Camping’s key is. You have to know what his key to the calendar is to be able to see if his key harmonizes with the Bible. Mr. Camping’s key to the calendar is explained in chapter four of his book, “Adam When?” ( http://209.10.202.163/graphical/literature/when/when_contents.html ) I have observed that many people buy into Mr. Camping’s Biblical Calendar because it “rings true”, and yet have no idea what Mr. Camping’s key (Biblical proof) of the calendar is. It appears that Mr. Camping’s followers are relying on feelings rather than Biblical facts. Again, can you explain the simple key to the Biblical calendar that Mr. Camping claims unlocked the previously hidden Biblical calendar? That should be the focus of our discussion in determining whether or not Mr. Camping’s Biblical Calendar is valid. How can we discuss his proof of the key to the calendar, unless we know what that key is?

10 11 2008
David

From the Holy Bible, we know “Biblical proof,” the “key”, God’s “key,” is revealed as God chooses:

Psalms 31:20
“Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.”

Isaiah 66:2
“For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.”

May God bless many souls with the hope of salvation, to His praise and glory, in Christ Jesus name. Amen.

David

13 11 2008
Al

Marc:

Sorry for the delay, Work is demanding.

I am not sure what you mean about a Bible key? Mr. Camping lays out the time line. I copied it and put it in a previous post. Besides that, The Bible is a message of salvation, the time line is just within the message. I am not real concerned with Earths time line or when it will all end. I know that the end of the world will come for each of us at some point. I am interested and concerned in Salvation and its core meaning to all of us.

I don’t believe that this existence is a gift, instead I believe we were thrown down to this existence to repent and seek GOD and his forgiveness. Nothing else that I have read of thought about regarding this existence makes more sense to me. Nothing here is everlasting, everything will turn to dust or is headed for destruction.. All of our hopes, dreams and desires are at best a prideful moment in time.

Funny how simple the proposition is. With all of your heart, Beg GOD for Mercy confess your intentions to GOD, turn away from self-pride

Either GOD will give you Salvation or he won’t, I don’t believe anyone can really say with full confidence that they have been saved. I have experienced and seen others have more then their share of tests, chastisement and spiritually growth the can’t be easily explained.

Mr. Camping has devoted his life, more then 60 years to studying, reading and teaching the Bible. While this doesn’t prove he is right about everything he teaches or that anyone should blindly follow his teachings, it does show extraordinary commitment and level of expertize that shouldn’t be flippantly dismissed. Mr. Camping is 86 years old. I can’t imagine what 80+ years of living under GODs law is about, but I do know it wasn’t at all a walk in the park.

Please take a look at this video:
mms://209.10.215.74/video/highspeed/bthv/bthv_241.wmv

Proverbs 3:7: Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

13 11 2008
Marc

Al,

I agree that the Bible is a message of God’s greatness and his wonderful salvation. However, when Mr. Camping claims he has discovered a hidden Biblical Calendar, and then claims he can project the time of the final judgment using this calendar, he takes the focus off our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Mr. Camping redirects the focus of his followers away from our Lord. Instead the focus becomes Mr. Camping, and whether he is truly able to know the timeline of history, and whether or not he can really know the date of the rapture and the final judgment.

Al, Mr. Camping has directed his followers not to trust him but to check out his teachings from the Bible. All you did was repeat Mr. Camping’s Biblical conclusion when you copied his timeling of history. You did not discuss Mr. Camping’s Biblical proof of his calendar. In “We’re Almost There,” Mr. Camping does not repeat his proof of the calendar. Instead he references the book “Adam When?” for the Biblical proof of the calendar. In chapter four of Adam When? Mr Camping unlocks the previously hidden Biblical Calendar with a Biblical “key.” It would be wrong for anyone to trust Mr. Camping’s Biblical timeline of history, unless they first examine his Biblical key to the calendar. If you don’t examine the Biblical key to see if it is in harmony with everything we read in the Bible, you are not trusting the Bible. You are trusting Mr. Camping. Again, I ask you the simple, straightforward question. What is the key that Mr. Camping claims unlocked the previously hidden Biblical Calendar? This is not a trick question. I am pointing out that your inability to answer this question demonstrates conclusively that you do not carefully check Mr. Camping’s teachings with the Bible. You admit that you don’t even know what I mean by Mr. Camping’s key. Isn’t that evidence that you don’t test Mr. Camping’s Biblical proof of the calendar to see if it is in harmony with everything we read in the Bible. You are trusting Mr. Camping rather than relying on the Bible as your authority.

Mr. Camping’s skillful use of convincing rhetoric brainwashes his followers into thinking that they have checked out his teaching’s from the Bible, and have found him to be true. However, his followers do not really analyze his proof of the Biblical Calendar. None of his followers can even articulate what Mr. Camping claimed was the Biblical key that unlocked the previously hidden Biblical Calendar. They are not trusting the Bible. They don’t check out Mr. Camping’s proof of the calendar with the Bible. They feel that Mr. Camping’s teachings fit the Bible, but don’t carefully analyze his Biblical support for the calendar of history. They are trusting a man rather than trusting God.

Marc

15 11 2008
Al

Hi Marc:

Mr Camping uses what he refers to as the calendar patriarchs known as the Avot in Hebrew

According to the Bible Abraham, his son Isaac and his grandson Jacob; collectively, are referred to as the shloshet ha-avot. (Their wives – Sarah, Rebekah, (Leah and Rachel – the wives of Jacob) – are known as the Matriarchs.) Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah, Moses and Joseph are known patriarchs.

The bible contains intricate patterns of chronologies from the births to deaths and offspring. From Genius it is possible to calculate a time-line however I have researched it a few times and came up with different numbers. When reading the Bible, you can easily find the lifetimes of: Adam 930; Seth 912; Enosh 905; Kenan 910; Mahalalel 895; Jared 962; Enoch 365 (Taken up b GOD); Methuselah 969; Lamech 777; Noah 950. These lifetimes and the births and deaths of offspring is the hardest to figure for a bunch of reasons. After the Bible and known history meet, it is a bit easier.

In the New Testament, King David is referred to as a patriarch also, as are Jacob’s twelve sons These are the ancestors of the Twelve tribes of Israel.

So a key? Not sure if there is one. Mr. Camping asserts that he has found what he believes the right time-line. I can’t argue, I don’t have that sort of brain power. Besides that, I don’t see it all that important. Seems to me, Mr. Camping does see it important in that he is driven to get this information and the Bible out into the world.

Like I said, I don’t blindly follow Mr. Camping or anyone else. I do believe that he is faithful as humanly possible. I’ve heard him make correction when he finds something wrong with what he is teaching. more then a few times in the last 10 years. (Did you view the video link that I posted?)

Concerning the Elect of GOD, some other things I can’t argue with:

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Why does this ring true with me? I believe this existence is a spiritual existence not at all what it seems to be. Mr. Camping is just a Bible teacher, fallible and frail like all of us. Its the message of the Bible that is important. Some will hear, some will scoff, some will not hear at all. So I guess my message to anyone reading this is that we need to focus on GOD and the Bible, not any particular person or church doctrine.

I am trusting GOD and GOD alone for my existence and salvation. To GOD be all the Glory!

Al

15 11 2008
Marc

Al,

Mr. Camping’s discovers the time line of history by interpreting the genealogies of Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 in an unusual way. He claims that each patriarch was born in the year that the previous patriarch died (with a few exceptions). This allows him to extend the Biblical calendar of history all the way back to Adam. However, Mr. Camping explicitly states that his interpretation is only an assumption, unless we can find a key, that proves that this is indeed the proper way to interpret the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11. Yes there is a key! Mr. Camping tells us what this key is. And he gives a long complicated Biblical proof of this key. If Mr. Camping himself says that we must demand Biblical proof before we accept this Biblical Calendar, don’t you think you should carefully read his proof to find out if it is valid and in harmony with the Bible? You have not done this. You excuse yourself for not doing this by saying that you do not have “that kind of brain power. ” I would be happy to explain Mr. Camping’s key that unlocks the Biblical Calendar to you. And I would be happy to show you how he makes many mathematical errors in proving this calendar key, He makes many logical errors, gives many wrong Biblical references, and he makes many false statements. You do have the brain power! It just takes time to think it through carefully.

One thing that is tragic is that the ideas Mr. Camping communicates are not that complicated. Why do people like you think they don’t have the brain power? It is because Mr. Camping does a poor job of explaining his proof of the calendar. His writing is not organized clearly and logically. His sentences are long and awkward. I couldn’t even understand it until I had read it many, many, many, times. After finally understanding his points, I could carefully check to see if his points were in harmony with everything we read in the Bible. And that is how I discovered the many many errors in his proof of the Biblical Calendar.

I don’t understand how you can accept Mr. Camping’s Biblical Calendar without checking out his proof to see if his proof of the calendar is in harmony with the Bible. If you accept the calendar without understanding the Biblical proof of the calendar, it seems that you are just taking Mr. Camping’s word for it. It seems that you are trusting Mr. Camping rather than trusting the Bible only.

Marc

16 11 2008
Al

Hi Marc:

I am not trusting in anyone other then GOD. I am not really interested in anyones time-line or theories. Looks to me most are wrong in one way or another; many disagree. The Bible has been interpreted over and over again by all sorts of people even before the Council of Trent. Is it that important to prove anyone of them wrong? The Bible is a mystery, it can’t truly be explained.

However, if you have corrections in Mr. Campings time-line post them. Let’s look together and call him to explain. If he is as wrong as you believe, we need to point it out. We would however need to be dead right. No room for argument, Biblical proof to back up all statements. When we are done, we should draft a letter to Family radio. But again, we need to be as honest and correct as possible without an ax to grind.

I don’t have any problem being corrected either, what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.

Al

16 11 2008
Al

Marc:

I read above that you have already sent Mr. Camping a letter. Can you post it? You have made more the a few statements above that seem to suggest
this time-line has errors. Can we hit them point, by point?

Al

16 11 2008
Al

Marc:

Came across this site: http://www.departout.com/viewtopic.php?t=5

Seems no one can really show point by point where he is wrong. All I’ve seen is argument and some bashing. Difficult subject.

One person who posted outlined the “Egyptian sojourn” Quote: “I’m not agreeing with his timeline for the end of the world, but his timeline for the beginning seems spot on”

16 11 2008
16 11 2008
Marc

Al,

You state the following: “I am not really interested in anyones time-line or theories.” Are you being honest? You seem very interested in the doctrines of Harold Camping which are based largely on his discovery of a previously hidden Biblical time-line.

You asked me to post the errors of Mr. Camping, and I will be happy to do so. (I wrote a complete point by point rebuttal to Mr. Camping’s Biblical Calendar proof. I carefully typed the research into a professional document, bound the research into a book, and handed it to Mr. Camping. He refused to accept the research. He is not open to correction).

But before I post the errors of Mr. Camping it is important that you understand what Mr. Camping’s key to the calendar is. If you don’t understand how Mr. Camping proves his Biblical Calendar in the first place, how can I show you the many errors in the proof of this key to the calendar? This is just basic background information. Critical background information. Without an understanding of what allows Mr. Camping to claim discovery of a previously hidden Biblical Calendar, we cannot analyze how his proof is not in harmony with the Bible.

Would you like me to explain what Mr. Camping’s key to the calendar is with documentation from his writings? You must understand this first, or you will not be able to see his critical errors, and the significance of these errors. After you have a clear understanding of Mr. Camping’s key to the calendar, you will have a much easier time of checking this key out to make sure it is in harmony with everything we read in the Bible.

Marc

17 11 2008
Al

Marc:

Of course I am being honest. Any day could be the end of the world, at least for me. However… If Mr. Camping is right and we don’t listen then how could we say that we trust the Bible.

I would like to see what you have come up with. I will pray about it before I read it and keep an open mind.

Al

17 11 2008
Marc

Al,

You were unable to identify Mr. Camping’s key that unlocked the previously hidden Biblical Calendar. That is troubling. You agree with Mr. Camping’s doctrines. And the Biblical Calendar is a foundational to the doctrines of Harold Camping . And yet you have not carefully checked out his proof of this Biblical calendar. It appears that you are just taking Mr. Camping’s word that the calendar is faithful to the Bible, rather than really checking out his Biblical proof of the time-line of history.

Mr. Camping’s Biblical Calendar theory claims that the patriarchs in Genesis 5 and 11 form a calendar that will enable him to extend the Biblical Calendar all the way back to Adam. His assertion is that each patriarch is born in the year the previous patriarch dies. He admits that he must have Biblical proof of this calendar theory.

Here are direct quotes from “Adam When?” in which Mr. Camping defines the key that unlocks the previously hidden Biblical Calendar. Notice that he states that there is a key, and defines what this key is.

Page 45

“The Key That Unlocks Genesis 5 and 11”

“Though it may seem a bit removed from our discussion, it develops that an understanding of the Israelite’s genealogy during the time of their sojourn in Egypt provides the key that confirms our understanding of Genesis 5 and 11. When we study the genealogical descent of Levi, who entered Egypt as a son of Jacob, we find additional evidence that substantiates our patriarchal calendar. We will show that during the Egyptian sojourn a kind of calendar existed which was referenced to descendants of Levi, with each of his descendants being the reference patriarch during his entire lifetime.”

Page 55

“Thus, we see that our assumption is correct that in certain situations there existed a patriarchal calendar with one patriarch living his entire lifetime as the family head. God indicates to us that the generation or patriarchal period of Kohath followed the period of Levi and commenced in the year that ended Levi’s period. Similarly, Amram’s generation followed Kohath’s Aaron’s generation began at the death of Amram. In this way the Bible gives us a time bridge covering the Israelites sojourn in Egypt that is identical with the 430 years of Exodus 12:40.”

Page 57

“Thus, God in His wonderful wisdom has placed in our hands a key that unlocks the hitherto perplexing genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11. The key is the chronological record of the Israelite’s sojourn in Egypt. By properly understanding the timetable of the Egyptian sojourn, we establish the evidence for understanding Genesis 5 and 11. God gave considerable information about the Egyptian sojourn so that this key could be found.”

Page 62-63

“Summary”

“Thus far, we have seen that God has provided in His marvelous Word a calendar that reaches back all the way to the first man, Adam. Form the data offered in Exodus 6 concerning the life spans of Levi, Kohath, and Amram, we have discovered that these ancient peoples kept track of time by referencing the passage of time to the life spans of certain key individuals.”

Al, we have seen so far that Mr. Camping states that there is a key that unlocks the Biblical Calendar and he defines what that key is. As I mentioned before we must understand this key if we are to carefully check to see if this key is in harmony with the Bible. Do you have any questions so far?

Marc

21 11 2008
Brad

When May 21, 2011 turned out to be the seventeenth day of the second month of the Hebrew calendar, it was proof positive that there is in fact a Biblical calendar. According to the Biblical language in Geneseis chapter 7, May 21, 2011 will be seven thousand years to the very day from the shutting of the door on salvation. There is no possibility that this is a coincidance. It makes no sense to bicker anymore over “Campigs key.” Everything Camping did in working out the timeline from the creation to the flood to the Day of the Lord has now been demonstrated to have been done with exquisite Biblical accuracy.

5 12 2008
Marc

Al,

You said you would like to see what I have come up with, and that you would keep an open mind. I have found many mathematical and logical errors in Mr. Camping’s proof of the Biblical Calendar. I tried to introduce my findings with some background information. I don’t want to proceed until I am sure that you understand the background information regarding Mr. Camping’s key to the Biblical Calendar. If you are ready for me to continue let me know.

12 12 2008
jude vandyk

i have always believed that everythig taught on Family Radion, by Harold Camping i particular is altogether true and trustworthy. i of course was not a family radio listener in 1992 when Mr camoing was teaching that 1994 would be the end of the world. But when i did begin to listen to Camping (early last year), i honestly belived that what he taught was Biblical and was trustworthy. But lately, i have been thinking otherwise. Like Camping always says, i have been examining all that i had believed was coming from the Bible. I have been taking Camping’s advise, coming to the Bible with an open mind and not having pre-conceived ideas, ready for God to teach me. And through that, i have come to believe that there are many errors in the teachings of Mr Camping and Family Radio. Remember how a man by the name of Charles Taze Russell broke out from the Presbyterian church to form an anti-Christian religion masquarading as a Christian religion called the Jehovahs Witnesses ?Remember how he taught that ‘millions now living will never die’ in his prophesying that the world will end in the year 1914?Of course, he was proved a false prophet when the world did not come to an end. The date was changed to 1925, and again, the world did not end. Instead of listening to God’s Word the Bible whe it says that no man knows the day nor the hour of the Lord’s coming, the apostate Jehovahs witnesses taught that 1975 was to be the end, guess what, the same thing happened, the workd dodn not end. People, this is one of the ways in which we can recognise false prophets, they say ‘Thus saith the Lord, when the Lord hath not said’.And now many of us know well not to associate with the jehovahs witnesses, because from outside of their blasphemy in teaching that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not God, they have continually made false priphecies that the world would come to an end, and they ALWAYS been wrong. Remember how a man by the name of William (founder of the apostate Seventh Day adventist movement) decalred that the world would come to an end in 1842 (approx), and how countless numbers of people belived his lies, sold their houses and so on, and waited for Christ to return. And oh, what a disappointment it was when Jesus did not return, and instantly, William proved himself a false prophet because he ahd rebelliously said ‘thus sauth the Lord, when the Lord had not said’.Both the Jehovahs witnesses and the Seventh Day adventists teach that those days were not wrong. The Jehovahs witnesses have manipulated the numbers in their perversion of the Bible called the New World Translation, and now teach that in the year 1914 Jesus DID actually return only that His return was invisible. And on that year He began to reign in heaven. The Seventh Day adventists also teach that the year 1842 WAS infact a very ignificant year, beacsue on that year Jesus went into the holy of holies in the heavenly sactaury. They teach that on that year, the vision of the 2300 evening morning of Daniel 8 was fully fulfilled.Uhmm, are’nt there a lot of similarities wiith religious cults? I believe that we have something very similar today folks. Family Radio is very much like these two religious organisations i have meantioned. One, they all have made numerous date-settings for the end of the world and the retuirn of Christ, and they ALL have been wrong. Harold Camping wrote a book calle 1994 ? In that book, he declared that the world would end somewhere aound September of 1994.Like the JWs and the Seventh Day adventists, he was proved to be a false prophet when Chrsist did not return. And when 1994 came and went, he kept changind the dates for the end, and still he was proved wrong. Camping seemed to repent a littke bit of his false teachings, but now like the JWs he says that he was right all along. 1994 was a VERY important year in God’s divine calendar, for in that year ,the latter rain began. And when asked ny callers of the open forum about the false teaching of 1994, Camping says that he wrote a question mark on the title of his book, and so he wasnt saying that he is 100 % sure that 1994 was to be the ear of Christ’s return. Excuse me? If Mr Camping was VERY sure that 1994 was to be the year of the end. Otherwise he would not have been so bold as to teach such a teaching. He would not have taken all the time and energy to write the book if he was not sure that 1994 would be the year of the end. He would have not sopent so much money in printing and publishing the book. Are’nt there alot of similarities between false religions. For example, both cults such as Mormonism, Christian Science, the Jehovahs Witnesses etc all teach that Christ is not eternal God Himself, but is a lesser being to the Father. This is pure blasphemy, these people seriously need Jesus. Likewise, i feel that Harold Camping, may just be another Charles Taze Russell, or Ellen Goud White, or any of the founders of the other apostate religiouns who calim the title of Christian. Men who are associated with family radio such as Gunther Von Harringa sr (Bible ministries inernational) are also now buying the ideas of Mr Camping,i.e. his ways of interpreting Scripture. Camping’s way of interpreting Scripture is very dangerous i think, his is the allegorical mehod, wherein he searches (and i feel develops from his own mind) for deep meanings in Bible texts. Where does God teach us in the Bible that we need to break down Bible numbers in order to find truth as Camping does in the number of the beast for example? And where in the Bible does God teach that certain numbers do illustrate spiritual truth. Yea, sure the numbers 6 and 7 may have some spiritual meaning at times, but i am not aware of any place in the Bible where the Lord tells us to break numbers down to find truth, and how numbers such as 43 and 37 can have any spiritual meaning in them. If i am wrong and Camping is rright in his way of interpreting Scripture, then may the Lord have mercy on me for my unblelief, but if there are errors in Camping’s teachings, especiall one about 2011, then may the Lord open his eyes and bring him to truth.
Grace to you all and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ , who is coming very very soon.
His Holy Spirit guide and protect you all,
love ,Jude

20 12 2008
Marc

Jude,

Thanks for your encouraging post. I hope you find encouragement from others with your new perspective, and if I can be of assistance, let me know.

Marc

21 12 2008
Jim B.

Harold Camping is being blinded by God and now teaches the heresy of annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other cults. He teaches that the Devil, Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, and all believers will not be punished, but simply be burned up on the Last Day. The Bible clearly teaches that there will be a Judgement Day and the Hell is eternal. Matthew 25:41,46 Rev 14, etc. Mr Camping is a false teacher and a false prophet. Jesus said that many false prophets will arise and deceive many. He believes that all churches and the entire Christian world is under the rule of Satan except for Family Radio. He was wrong about the world ending in 1994 and is wrong about the world ending in 2011. He is a very smart man who has studied the Bible for decades, and speaks with authority, but he is a false teacher, cult leader, and a false prophet. When you listen to him for hours everyday you become brainwashed and dependent on him. I used to be like this, but God through His Spirit freed me through the truth. The world will not end in 2011, all churches are not apostate, we are not in the final tribulation period. God is bringing judgement on Family Radio, it is apostate. Marc and I have studied his Biblical Calendar which is wrong. According to the Bible, the earth is about 6000 years old NOT 13000 years old. Mr Camping went outside the Bible and thought that secular and scientific evidence would not allow for a 6000 year old earth so he came up with the Calendar Patriarch theory, which is INCORRECT. My beloved friends, the Bible says that many false prophets will arise and deceive many, Mr camping is a false prophet, and a cult leader who is deceiving many people.
God Bless You and open your eyes,
fell free to email me: jimbbbbb@gmail.com
Jim B.

23 12 2008
Brad

When May21 2011 turned out to be the seventeenth day of the second month of the Hebrew calendar, it was proof positive that there is in fact a Biblical calendar. According to the Biblical language in Genesis chapter seven, May 21 2011 will be seven thousand years to the very day from the shutting of the door on salvation. There is no possibility that this is coincidental. It makes no sense any longer to argue over “Campings key.” Everything Camping did in developing the timeline of history from creation to the Last Day has now been demonstrated to have been done with exquisite Biblical accuracy. Brad

14 01 2009
Marc

Brad,

My son’s birthday is coming up. He is eight years old, but he is near the end of his ninth year of life (not counting the womb). He will be turning 9 years old, and beginning his 10th year of life on Monday. You must understand the distinction here. Again, his ninth birthday begins his 10th year of life. If you fail to understand the difference between the years completed (cardinal number) and the year in progress (ordinal number), you will make errors in your calculations.

I took a quick look at your claim, and I don’t understand how you come up with the 7000 year interval. It looks to me like according to Mr. Camping’s calendar, it is 7001 years between the date that the flood began and 2011. We read in Genesis 7:6 that Noah was 600 years old during the flood: “And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.” Then the Bible gives us specific information that he entered the ark when he was 599 and turned 600 near the end of the time on the ark. Therefore, Noah entered the ark in 4991 B.C. and got off the ark in 4990, according to Mr. Camping’s calendar. 4991 B.C. is 7001 years before 2011.

Let’s look very carefully at the verses that give us this specific information. Genesis 7:11 states “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” Brad, do you understand that when Noah reached 599 years old that he began the 600th year of his life? This verse clearly tells us that Noah was 599 years old when he entered the ark. This is the year 4991 B.C. according to Mr. Camping’s calendar.

Genesis 8:13 reads: “And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.” Do you understand that the first day of Noah’s 601st year is the same thing as his birthday when he turned 600. So, if you were to assume Mr. Camping’s calendar were correct, you would also have to realize that it would be the end of the flood that marks 7000 years before 2011, not the beginning of the flood!

I see other possible problems with your proof. But this is the most obvious problem I see right away. Do you understand my point?

Marc

16 01 2009
Brad

Mark, The Bible is explicit. Genesis 7:6. Noah was 600 years old when the flood waters were upon the earth. On the 17th day of the 2nd month in the year 4990BC God shut the door of the Ark. May 21, 2011 is the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Hebrew Calendar. The 23 year tribulation sequence starting on May 21, 1988 no longer takes you to the 7000th year from the flood, it does not take you to the month, it does not put you within a week, IT PUTS YOU ON THE VERY DAY THE DOOR WAS SHUT!! Luke 17 verses 26,27. Brad

16 01 2009
Marc

Brad,

Yes the Bible is explicit, that Noah was 599 years old when the flood started and turned 600 during the flood. You would love the Bible to say Noah was 600 years old at the beginning of the flood because you have a preconceived conclusion that you want to be able to support. Genesis 7:11 states “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” is explicitly clear that Noah was in his 600th year when the flood started. You must understand these are not cardinal numbers that give the age of Noah. They are ordinal numbers! Don’t you know that in the 600th year means that Noah was 599 years old? Don’t you know that in the second month means that only one complete month has elapsed? Don’t you know that in the 17th day only 16 complete days have elapsed. I am not inventing a new way to read ordinal numbers. That is the way they are always interpreted! If you are running a marathon and in your 23rd mile how many miles have you completed? The answer is 22. If you are in the 5th day of the work how many days have you already worked? The answer is 4. If a baby is in his first year of life how many years old is the baby. The answer is 0 complete years. Why can’t you understand this basic mathematical principle? Because you have a preconceived conclusion. You don’t want to read the Bible for what it says. You want to read the Bible in a way that supports your preconceived conclusion.

Brad, if you want to interpret in the 600th year as meaning 600 years old (600 years of life already lived), you must be consistent and interpret the 2nd month as 2 months already have been completed. If two months were already completed that would not match the Jewish calendar, because May 21, 2011 does not match a date in the Jewish calendar where 2 months of the year have been completed.

Brad, I tried to explain this in a previous post. Instead of explaining to me where my reasoning is wrong, you just asserted that I was wrong. Did you even read my explanation?

17 01 2009
Brad

Mark, Your reasoning is dead wrong!! You blatantly contradict yourself and do not carefully read the Bible. According to your reasoning, the language of Genesis 8:13 would mean that Noah was celebrating his 600th birthday. This verse states explicitly that on this particular day the flood was over!! Genesis 7:6 explicitly states that Noah was 600 years old when the FLOOD WATERS WERE UPON THE EARTH!! Your assertion that the 17th day of the 2nd month must mean that two months have been completed is just plain ridiculous!! May 21, 2011 will in fact be 7000 years to the very day from the shutting of the door of the Ark. Brad

17 01 2009
Marc

Brad, You are really saying that the Bible is wrong when it says that Noah was in his 600th year. You are saying that the Bible is contradicting itself. You make a good point that the Bible says that Noah was 600 years during the flood and then says Noah was 600 years near the end of the flood. However, I don’t think the Bible is contradicting itself. It is possible that the 600 years (during the flood) was a rounded number to the nearest year. It is also possible that “the flood” event was not considered entirely over when Noah turned 600. But when it gives specific information to the day, the Bible is clear that Noah was 599 years old when the flood began and was 600 years old when the flood ended. There is no contradiction in the Bible.

If you insist the month and the day are references to the Jewish calendar, than according to you we don’t know exactly when Noah turned 600. We know he was in his 600th year when the flood began, and in his 601st year when the flood ended. With any basic math or reasoning skills, we know that the 600th year is when Noah was 599 years old, and the 601st year was when Noah was 600 years old.

Brad, I am in my 55th year of life. How many years old do you think I am? Be honest. Don’t fudge.

17 01 2009
Brad

Marc, The Bible does give explicit to the day Time information. Genesis 8:13, Noah was in his 601st year on the 1st day of the 1st month when he opened the Ark and saw that THE GROUND WAS DRY! Genesis 7:6, Noah was 600 years old when THE FLOOD WATERS WERE UPON THE EARTH! Genesis 7:11, Noah was in his 600th year on the 17th day of the 2nd month when God shut him into the Ark. Noah was 600 years old +2months and 17 days when the flood began! This was the Biblical Calendar year 4990BC on precisely the 17th day of the 2nd month. May 21, 2011 is the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Hebrew Calendar. This will be 7000 years to the very day from the shutting of the door of the Ark. This is the final confirmation of the truth and accuracy of the Biblical Calendar Of History. Brad

17 01 2009
Marc

Brad,

Your statement is that “Noah was 600 years +2 months +17 days is wrong. But aren’t you admitting in this statement that the 2 months and 17 days are referring to the age of Noah and not referring to the Hebrew calendar! Furthermore, if Noah was 600 years plus 2 months + 17 days than that would not be 7000 years to the very day before May 21, 2011. May 21, 2011 would be exactly 7000 years after the time when Noah was 600 years plus 1 month + 16 days. Remember the 2nd month 17th day is only about 1 and 1/2 months into the year. Your don’t really seem to be understanding my points at all. And that is why you keep insisting that you are right.

Brad, you refused to answer my question that demonstrates the fallacy of your position. That is troubling, and is evidence that you are being less than honest (perhaps unintentionally). I am in my 55th year of life. How many years old do you think I am? Be honest. Don’t fudge.

17 01 2009
Brad

Marc, Thanks for the correction on the fact that Noah was 600 years old plus one month plus 17 days. That was an honest mistake. However, the logic of your charge that I am being “perhaps unintentionally less then honest” escapes me. The Biblical language shuts Noah into the Ark at 600 years of age + ONE MONTH AND 17 DAYS(thank you), when it declares that the ground was dry on his 601st birthday and that the flood waters were upon the earth when he was 600 years old. This day when the door was shut was the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Biblical Calendar Year 4990BC. May 21, 2011 is the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Biblical Calendar Year in 2011. The 23 year Tribulation sequence starting on May 21, 1988 no longer takes you to the 7000th year from the flood, it does not take you to the month or put you within a week, IT PUTS YOU ON THE VERY DAY THAT THE DOOR WAS SHUT!! 7000 YEARS TO THE VERY DAY!! This is the final proof of The Biblical Calendar Of History

17 01 2009
Marc

The reason I said that you were being less than honest is because you did not address the issues that I have brought up. You just contradicted be without dealing with the points I made. I asked you a question that would illustrate my point, and you refused to answer the question: I am in my 55th year of life. How many years old am I?

I addressed your good point that questioned my interpretation that Noah didn’t turn 600 until near the end of the flood. I gave three possibilities:
1. Genesis 7:6 may be giving Noah’s age as a rounded number, whereas the other verses give the exact age to the day.
2. It is possible that the flood was not completely over, but had areas of dry ground as well as areas of flood. Read further on in chapter 8 for evidence of this possibility.
3. Your point is not applicable if you hold your interpretation that the month and day were referring to the Hebrew calendar rather than to Noah’s age.

However, up until your last post it appeared that you were not really reading my explanation. In your last post I noticed I had finally made an impression.

MY point was that if Noah was in his 600th year 2nd month and 17th day his age would be 599 years old 1 month and 16 days (plus an unknown number of hours and minutes). I explained that you must subtract one year from the ordinal number to arrive at the time elapsed. You finally agreed with me in your last post! But only partially. You were able to see that Noah being in his second month meant that only 1 month had elapsed. You admitted we must subtract one month from the ordinal number. Now, don’t you see that the same mathematical principle applies to the year and day?

Another question you refused to answer was your statement regarding Noah being 600 years 2 months and 17 days. Are you admitting that the months and days are referring to Noah’s age and have nothing to do with the Hebrew calendar?

Another passage that confirms that Noah was 600 years at the end of the flood is Genesis 9:28 and 29: And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

My view is in harmony with these verses. Noah was 600 at the end of the flood, lived 350 years after the flood and was 950 years when he died. Mr. Camping claims that Noah was 600 at the beginning of the flood, making him 601 at the end of the flood. Mr. Camping’s view does not compute because 601 plus 350 does not equal 950. It equals 951!

Thanks for considering my point of view.

17 01 2009
Brad

Mark, When the Bible says that Noah was 600 years old when the flood waters were upon the earth I believe it. I do not buy the rounded number theory. When the Bible says that the earth was dry on Noahs 601st birthday I believe it. I do not buy the partially dry earth theory. Genesis 7:6 states that Noah was 600 years old when the flood waters were upon the earth. When verse 11 speaks of the 17th day of the second month it means that the door was shut 1 month and 17 days after Noahs 600th birthday. The Calendar was dated by the life span of the Patriarchs until the Exodus when God instituted the Hebrew Calendar. May 21, 2011 is the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Biblical Calendar. This date is 7000 years to the very day from the shutting of the door of the Ark, which was the 17th day of the 2nd month of The Biblical Calendar Year 4990BC.

17 01 2009
Marc

Brad,

When the Bible gives the exact age of Noah and says that Noah was in his 600th year, 2nd month and 17th day, I believe it. I don’t buy your theory that 600th year doesn’t mean he was in his 600th year, but means he had already completed his 600th year. I am delighted that you have acknowledged that in the 2nd month means after one month. I don’t buy your theory that in the 17th day does not mean in the 17th day, but means after 17 days.

Brad, it’s easy to ask me to answer your difficult questions and then ridicule my answers as foolish, and then when I ask you hard questions that reveal the flaws in your theory, you refuse to answer. That is being less than honest. I’ve asked you three times. You refuse to answer because it will reveal the flaw in your theory. I am in my 55th year of life. How old am I? I also asked you if you admit that the months and days are referring to Noahs life span and not to the Hebrew calendar. You refused to answer.

Why won’t you answer these straightforward questions? Remember, you are the one teaching sensational doctrines from the Bible. I am not teaching any new or unusual Bible truths. Of course, I am not going to have a perfect and thorough knowledge of your teachings. But you are teaching these sensational predictions of the end of the world, and should be prepared and accountable to answer questions that challenge your doctrines.

Marc

18 01 2009
Brad

Marc, I have not asked you any difficult questions, nor am I being less than honest. You have charged my position that Noah entered the Ark at 600 years of age as being fallacious. I object to your charges! The Bible says that the earth was dry on the 1st day of Noahs 601st year and that the flood waters were upon the earth when Noah was 600 years old. Given these explicit Biblical statements, I believe that Noah entered the Ark at 600 years of age. I do not believe my position is difficult or dishonest. The 17th day of the 2nd month of the Hebrew Calendar in 2011 is May 21, 2011. This is 7000 years to the very day from the Biblical Calendar in 4990BC which was indeed based upon the life of Noah.

18 01 2009
Marc

Brad,

Maybe you’re not being dishonest. Maybe you’re just totally missing my point. But you are purposely missing my point. I asked you to answer questions that would help you understand my point. However, you continually refuse to answer. I’ll ask again for the fourth time.

I am now living in my 55th year of life. How many years old am I?

In a practical scenerio, would I qualify for a discount for people 55 years and older?

You stated plainly “The Bible says that the earth was dry on the 1st day of Noah’s 601st year.” If it is the 1st day of the 601st year is Noah’s life is his 601st year over? No! His 601st year is just beginnning! It is not over until the last second of the last day of the year! He is still 600 years old until the last second of the last day of the 601st year. You keep insisting that he is already 601 years old at the beginnning of the 601st year. And you offer no possible explanations on why you don’t interpret that verse literally!

I realize you are focusing on the verse that says that Noah was 600 years old during the flood. I gave you 3 possibilities that answered your claim. However, you were unable to consider two very possible interpretations. In the case of your proof text you will not deviate from a strict literal interpretation. And yet in the case of verses that contradict your theory you willingly interpret these verses in a non literal fashion. What about the third possibility? You refused to address that possibility because it pointed out the inconsistency in your position.

I have asked you for clarification on your position twice. This is my third try. Will you please clarify? Do you believe the month and day are referring to Noah’s age or to the Hebrew Calendar in the verses we are discussing?

Thanks,
Marc

I

18 01 2009
Brad

Marc, Yes, the month and day are a reference to Noahs age. The month and day in 2011 is the Hebrew Calendar equivalent. From the Biblical Calendar in 4990BC to the Biblical Calendar in 2011 it is 7000 years to the very day. I have not purposely missed the point of your question concerning your age, but I have avoided answering it for the following reason. You establish an irrational methodology of reasoning and then expect me to engage it. Based upon your understanding of the language of the flood account, you could be any age. You could be 54, you could be 55, you could be partially 54 and partially 55 or you could be rounded up to 60 or ronded down to 50. This is your methodology that I have tried to avoid, but you seem to want to press the matter. I have tried to let the Bible speak for itself and am strongly convinced that any sound RATIONAL interpretation of the text puts Noah in the Ark at 600 years of age.

18 01 2009
Marc

Brad,

I am not inventing a new methodology. You are the one who is doing that. And you do it with no explanation of why you have such authority. Do you know the difference between an ordinal number and a cardinal number?

This is basic reasoning. On the first day of the week the time span is not yet one day from the beginning of the week. On the second day of the week the span of time into the week is one day (plus a fraction). If you are swimming laps and you are swimming your 10th lap, you haven’t already swam 10 laps, you have only completed 9 laps. If you are running and are in your 5th mile, you have completed 4 miles (not 5 as your logic would indicate). I could go on and on. As you can see the ordinal number does not necessarily match the cardinal number. If Noah is in his 600th year he has completed 599 years of life. That is how conventional methodology works. We don’t automatically assume that the ordinal number will match the cardinal number. The ordinal number simply gives the order. The cardinal number gives the actual measurement. If we are given the ordinal number of years we are in, we can subtract one and determine the number of years completed. This is common sense.

Your unconventional methodology states that when Noah is in his 600th year he has completed 600 years. That is not possible. If he has completed 600 years he obviously would immediately begin his 601st year, not complete his 600th year again!

Can you give me an example of your methodology being used in any other measurement. I have given you many examples of how my methodology is the proper way to interpret ordinal numbers. You have not given me one example of how an ordinal number that gives the order, is equivalent to the cardinal number that gives the measurement. You claim that the ordinal number is equivalent to the cardinal number that gives the actual measurement of Noah’s age. Give me some sort of reason that you are authorized to use this unconventional methodology. Give me an example of where the cardinal number and the ordinal number are the same, and we can look at your example to see if it fits this situation. So far you have not given one reason or one example that validates your methodology.

Maybe I need to help you. If you buy a candy bar you have bought your first candy bar. When you buy your second candy bar you have two candy bars. This example matches your methodology of the cardinal number being the same as the ordinal number. So it is possible for the ordinal number to match the cardinal number. Why does it work. Because the process of buying a candy is instantaneous. It is not a process. Similarly if you give birth to your third child, you have three children. Again this works because it is instantaneous. The baby is born at a precise moment in time.

However, when we are talking about a time span, such as a year, the ordinal number which gives the order of years, does not match the cardinal number which gives the total years completed.

Here is what the methodology should be:

1.Understand that the ordinal number is not a measurement of elapsed time, but an order.
2.Measurements of time must be given using cardinal numbers.
3.If we know the ordinal number of years regarding a point in time we can determine the cardinal number of years completed by subtracting one.

You used your methodology regarding Noah being in the 2nd month. And you wrongly stated that Noah had already completed 2 months of life in his 600th year. You thanked me for my correction. Don’t you realize that it was my conventional methodology that allowed me to see that only one month of the year had been completed? It was your unconventional methodology that caused your error regarding the months. Now you need to understand that this unconventional methodology is causing you to make an error in how many years and days.

You say you want to avoid answering my question because you want to avoid my methodology. I encourage you to answer the question using your methodology. But you must explain why your methodology is valid, as I have done over and over again.

For the 5th time: I am now living in my 55th year of life. How many years old am I?

Marc

18 01 2009
Brad

Marc, Since its your own age at issue, I will let you use your own methodology and choose any age you wish. According to your methodology, when th Bible says Noah was 600 he was not 600. When the Bible says the earth was dry it was wet. So concerning your age, use your own methodology and pick an age the suits you. In fact, you can choose to be and not be simultaneously. However concerning the age of Noah entering the Ark, I refuse to apply your methodology of linguistic nihilism. I insist that the Biblical language has substance and meaning. When the Bible says that Noah was 600 years old when the waters were on the earth that means when Noah was 600 years old, the waters were on the earth. When the Bible says that the earth was dry on Noahs 601st birthday, that means that on Noahs 601st birthday, the earth was dry. A rational analysis of this language demands the conclusion that Noah was 600 years old when he entered the Ark. Thanks and take care, Brad

19 01 2009
Marc

I agreed with you that you had a good point regarding Genesis 7:6. I gave you an honest response that gave possible answers to your difficult question. And yes it is a difficult question because I notice that scholars are divided on the issue. But you have not been honest. Conservative Bible Scholars have also wrestled with reconciling Genesis 7:11 with Genesis7:6. Genesis 7:11, if you take it literally defines Noah’s age very precisely as being 599 years old, one month and 16 days. I did not invent this, apparent contradiction. Other scholars have discussed this Bible difficulty. I am not at my computer right now so I can’t give you the reference. However, in 1847, there was a book written that is a commentary on the Biblical account of the life of Noah. It mentions that these two verses can be reconciled when we realize that the Jewish tradition was to consider a part of the year as a whole year. It gave the example of Christ rising after 3 days. I don’t know how you view the 3 days, but many Bible students believe he was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday. Part of Friday would be considered a day, and part of Sunday was considered a day giving three days. Similarly, Noah was 599 years 1 month and 16 days, but the tradition would be to consider the part of a year as a whole year, which explains verse 6 stating that Noah was 600 years of age. That is the way one student of the Bible reconciled the verses in a book from the 19th century. (Were you aware that the 19th century refers to the 1800’s?)

Brad, you keep criticizing my view of your proof text. And yet you refuse to explain how you can reconcile your proof text with my proof text. I gave an honest answer to your question. You just keep repeating your proof text and have never explained how Noah could be in his 600th year as verse 11 states and have already completed his 600th year as you claim. Why won’t you engage in this aspect of the discussion. You are refusing to explain the verse that I asked you to explain, other than to say that in the 600th year means Noah was 600 years old. Can you explain how? How could Noah be in his 600th year and already finished his 600th year. Wouldn’t he be in his 601st year as soon as he completed his 600th year?

You are not being honest when you declare that I have not made a valid point. Don’t act like it is a non issue. This issue is one that has been discussed and puzzled over for years. I would think that those who agree with your interpretation do have reasons. You should be accountable to answer this question rather than keep ignoring my plea for an explanation. After all, you are the one proclaiming that these verses confirm that May 21, 2011 will be the time of the rapture.

Thanks for all your responses,

27 01 2009
Marc

Although Mr. Camping demands everyone else leave their church, he continues to fellowship under the same church government that he established in 1988. Since his fellowship rents the City of Alameda’s Veteran’s building he is required to have his groups by-laws on file with the city. I requested a copy. The city did not have the by-laws on file and asked Mr. Camping’s fellowship for the by-laws. The city mailed me a copy. The by-laws show that the legal name of the fellowship is still Reformed Bible Church. The by-laws, written in 1988, give total authority to Mr. Camping and Richard Homeres, with little accountability or restrictions. They can even choose to pay themselves reasonable expenses and reasonable payment for services rendered. I believe Richard Homeres is an employee of Mr. Camping, making Mr. Camping’s control of the fellowship fairly certain.

I know, that other ministries (including Family Radio) are expected to publish the details as to how donors’ money is spent. I think that Mr. Camping should publish the financial records of his Alameda Bible Fellowship in order to avoid the appearance of evil.

5 03 2009
johannes coetzee

I am from South Africa and what blessing it is to listen to this endtime message via the radio broadcasts of Family Radio every evening on the AM and Short Wave radio.

May the Lord richly bless Family Radio till He comes to rapture the true believers on 21 May 2011 and end this world 5 months later on 21 October 2011.

(Rev 14:6) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

(Rev 14:7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

May the Lord have mercy on each one of us.

johannes coetzee

Family Radio listener (South Africa)

7 03 2009
Marc

Hi Johannes,

Great to have you back to discuss this topic! You have confidently asserted without proof your agreement with Mr. Camping with his prediction of the date of the rapture of believers and the date of the end of the world 5 months later. Please offer Biblical evidence for your claim.

Here is the problem. Mr. Camping confidently teaches one date, then he confidently chooses another date. Here are his words, “If this study is accurate and I believe with all of my heart that it is, there will be no extensions in time. There will not be time for second guessing. When September 6, 1994, arrives, no one else can become saved. The end has come.” (page 533 of 1994?). When he states that he believes with all his heart, that reminds the reader of the confession of the Ethiopian Eunuch: Acts 8:37,38 “And Phillip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Mr. Camping believing 1994 with all his heart reminds us the Biblical description of believing in Christ for salvation. That is tragic because his failed prediction could have done damage the faith of Mr. Camping’s followers.

Yes, he did say that 1994? had a very slight possibility of being wrong. Why? Not because the Biblical evidence was lacking. It was because he “humbly” admitted that he was fallible, and could have missed something. Now he states that 2011 has no possibility of being in error. If we take that to the logical conclusion it would mean that he now thinks he is infallible!

Mr. Camping now confidently states that the world will continue for 5 months after all believers are raptured. Here is what he confidently wrote in 1994?: “This accords perfectly with the principle we have reiterated many times: The timetable of history is the unfolding of God’s salvation plan. Therefore, when God has saved each and every one who is to be saved, God’s salvation plan has been fulfilled. There no longer exists any other purpose for the world to continue. Thus, God immediately ends history by bringing the world to its end”. (Page 498) Mr. Camping indeed reiterated this doctrine over and over in 1994?: “The rapture not only immediately follows the final tribulation, which believers must endure, but it occurs simultaneously with the end of the world.” (page 44)

Mr. Camping wrote page after page proving that the rapture and the final judgment occurred simultaneously. He denounced anyone else who falsely taught otherwise. Now, he is teaching otherwise! He teaches judgment day is 5 months after the rapture of believers.

Johannes, you make confident false claims. Mr. Camping makes confident false claims. Some people are easily convinced by others repeated confident claims. This is unfortunate.

31 05 2009
Al

Hi Marc:

Still at it huh? Do you think Mr. Camping is right in anything? Does it make sense that GOD would reveal more as time passes and nears the end? Do you think the world is getting better or worse every day? I’ve been around for 55 years and I can tell you that this isn’t at all the same place. Horrific Greed, Wars, rumors of wars, churches degraded, Evil is increasing exponentially. People are for the most part fearful, closed, hateful, suspicious, unhappy and consume everything is sight. Populations are exploding, famine, murder, horrific executions can be viewed on the Internet, porn is readily available, animals are stressed. Governments completely corrupt, New world order mentality, homosexuality is revered and beyond “In-Style”. Diversity is worshiped, Men are being feminized in the workplace and at home. Religion in general is under attack, The Bible is publicly mocked. Being loving and humble is considered weakness and reviled. I have heard that this generation is called the “Me” generation. Me first, then me, and then again me… Humanity is De-evolving and viruses are evolving.

We are in tribulation. The whole world is under evil influence. It will not get better. Ask GOD, plead with GOD every moment you can. I know, your pride won’t let you. Yo might love this world as it is and as it will become. If so, Pray for wisdom, Pray for knowledge before its to late.

To GOD be all the GLORY.

Al

31 05 2009
Marc

Al,

Yes, the world is full of all kinds of evil. The examples you give are valid examples of wolves in wolves’ clothing. Mr. Camping is even more dangerous. He is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. In other words, he teaches harmful doctrines, but acts like he is humbly obeying the Bible. His Radio Station broadcasts nothing but the most conservative of Christian musical selections. He outwardly follows the laws of God, giving others the appearance that he can be depended upon to truthfully teach Biblical doctrines. That is why it is important to explain to people that Mr. Camping teaches sensationalistic human speculations as Biblical doctrines. His doctrines cause divisions within the body of Christ. He should be avoided.

Al, we don’t need to wonder whether Mr. Camping is right. We can know beyond any doubt that he is wrong. An important foundation to many of his speculations is his proof of his unusual Biblical Calendar of history that he offered in the early 1970’s. When we look at the proof of his calendar we find a lot of confusing explanations of his unusual interpretations. But when we analyze the proof carefully, we find that his calendar is based on circular reasoning. His calendar is based on false logic:

When we simplify and explain exactly what his calendar proof is, we can see that it is not based on Biblical proof. He needs to prove one and only one thing: that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph. His final evidence is to assume his calendar and conclude that Levi was indeed 21 years older than Joseph. That is circular reasoning and it is sinful deception.

Remember, Mr. Camping claims that if he can prove that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph than that would be the key (the proof) that would unlock the previously hidden calendar of history. How does he prove his key? He assumes the calendar to be true, and then concludes that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph. Then he states that since Levi was 21 years older than Joseph the calendar is true! He proves his calendar with circular reasoning. That is not logical, and proves that we cannot trust his teaching.

I visited Mr. Camping in Alameda. I asked him how he knows that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph, when the Bible does not specify exactly when Levi was born. He confirmed his logical error and said, Levi must have been born 3 years after Jacobs marriage because without that information we would not have a calendar. You see, Mr. Camping assumes his precious calendar to be true, and does not provide Biblical proof.

We know we should not follow Harold Camping because his teachings are not based on valid Biblical proof. His teachings are merely human speculations. We may want to believe someone like Mr. Camping who claims to have all the answers as to why there is so much evil in the world. But we must not trust in his doctrines because they are his own speculations that have no Biblical proof.

Thanks for considering my view,
Marc

5 07 2009
Al

Marc:

So Rabbi Harold assumes Levi was 21 years older than Joseph? which of his books and where? I posted the timeline above and I could not find it there either. I looked at the timeline in Calendar Confirmation from Egypt (Exodus 6,16) where it reads: “Levi’s life was137 years, three sons all dated”

In his work “We are almost there” I didn’t find anything contradicting to the BIBLE.

In his work “To GOD be all the Glory” Nothing contradicting the BIBLE.

I don’t get your feeling that he is dangerous or he teaches harmful doctrines. Look at TBN, Rome, others on the airwaves. ALL are teaching contrary to the BIBLE! ALL!

The Catholic Church which I was deeply involved until I found lied to us. (A real bad day for me) is totally wrong on more then a few levels.

Most Christian doctrines teach if you accept JESUS as your personal Saviour, when you die, you will be absent from the body and present with the LORD. Lies!

Most teach hell except a few – Lies! My whole life and that of my family believed in this horror. I remember thinking that it couldn’t be true. To think that a GOD would condemn the unsaved to eternal torture was hurtful and clouded the salvation issue altogether.

Most have some truth but fall far short from teaching the entire BIBLE. Pick and choose what they want to understand or believe – Lies!

Muslim doctrine is all over the place

Jewish doctrine is all over the place

The far east and Indian doctrines are all over the place.

GOD doesn’t have 50 ways to understand or approach HIM. Being GOD I am sure he has only one and its in your face if he allows you to see.

Maybe you should be looking at the entire state of religion world-wide to get a better idea of what is really going on. In the end, Religion is man-made and isn’t the issue. It boils down to everyones relationship with GOD. Period! Family Radio is being as faithful to the BIBLE as humanly possible. Far ahead of any other. If that isn’t a true statement, please point me in a direction that you believe is as faithful or doing a better job. I would be very interested.

We all intuitively know that there is a GOD. We all know we are in some sort of predicament regarding GOD and salvation. The question is what are you going to do? Its getting real close… Not much time left at all.

To GOD be All the GLORY!

Al

30 07 2009
Marc

Hi Al,

You asked for clarification regarding Mr. Camping’s false claim that the Bible teaches that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph. I don’t understand how you can defend Mr. Camping if you don’t already know this basic information that forms the foundation for all of his sensational doctrines.

Yes, Mr. Camping’s proof that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph is foundational to Mr. Camping’s doctrines. Strange, isn’t it? Mr. Camping’s false claim that he proved Levi to be 21 years older than Joseph is foundational to all his future errors. Let me explain why.

Mr. Camping wrote a book in 1974 called Adam When? In this book Mr. Camping claims that the Holy Spirit enabled him to discover a Bible mystery. He claims that the Holy Spirit revealed to him a key in the Bible, a key that unlocked the previously hidden calendar of history. His explanation of the key is very complicated, so most people don’t take the time to check him out. They just assume that he is honestly providing proof of his calendar. But we must carefully examine his proof. We must see if his proof is indeed faithful to the Bible. And when we do diligently examine Mr. Camping’s proof to see if it is faithful, we find that his proof utterly fails.

In Adam When? Mr. Camping explains his Biblical key to the calendar. He wonders if the Genesis genealogies could be a continuous calendar where each patriarch is born in the year the previous patriarch died (with some exceptions). This would give us a continuous time line of history from Adam to Abraham’s father. In order to prove his theory he looks at the genealogy of Levi during the 430 years in Egypt. He believed that if we add up the years of Levi, Kohath, Amram, and Aaron in Egypt, and they add up to 430 years, that would prove that his Biblical calendar teaching was correct. The Bible states that Levi lived 137 years, Kohath lived 133 years, Amram lived 137 years and Aaron lived 83 years in Egypt. However, the Bible does not say when Levi entered Egypt. Mr. Camping noticed that if Levi entered Egypt at age 60 his tally would work. But the Bible does not give this information. Mr. Camping notices that the Bible teaches that Joseph was 39 years old when Levi entered Egypt. So Mr. Camping needs to prove one thing: that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph (39+21=60}.. That would enable Mr. Camping to say that his calendar theory works for the 430 years in Egypt. And then he would apply the theory to the Genesis genealogies.

When you read Mr. Camping’s confusing proof of the calendar you find that he never proved his key to the calendar! He admitted that he did not prove that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph. Then he assumed the calendar to prove that Levi was 21 years older than Joseph. That is circular reasoning. That is wrong. You can’t assume the calendar to prove your key to the calendar. That is deceptive and false teaching. Mr. Camping never proved his calendar theory. This calendar is what he uses as the foundation for all his other books regarding end time events. For instance in We Are Almost There, Mr. Camping invites his readers to send for the book Adam When? for proof of his calendar. If you don’t believe me, look on page eight of We Are Almost There! Look at the footnote on the bottom.
Mr. Camping’s poorly written book, Adam When? is foundational to many of his sensational teachings. When we carefully analyze his proof of the calendar found in this book, we find that he assumed the calendar to prove the key to the calendar. That is utter nonsense, and must be rejected. We are not to trust in the speculations of a man. We must trust in the Bible only.

Marc

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